Bloody reality has come knocking - Index.hu interview with Katalin Novák
"It would be important to think about issues that are crucial for our future: about families, the future of children, or education, ina way free from the excesses of political campaigns" the President of Hungary told Index. In an interview at the Blue Salon of Sándor Palace, Katalin Novák said she was curious to see what the next step would be in the area of home ownership. The Head of State also spoke about what she experienced during her visit to Kyiv, the promises she received from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and what Pope Francis asked her to do. In-depth interview.
Katalin Novák, President of the Republic of Hungary, was interviewed at the Blue Salon of Sándor Palace, where she was asked, among other things, about
• how she spent her time in the shelter of the Kyiv government quarter;
• what was discussed in Ukrainian President Zelensky's bunker;
• what she told the Ukrainian president with unvarnished honesty;
• how she wishes to respond to a comment by David Pressman, US Ambassador;
• what Pope Francis asked her to do;
• her views on the tightening of the Child Protection Act;
• what she discussed with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni in Rome.
Her visit to Kyiv, where an air raid forced her to flee to a shelter, was no ordinary experience. Did you expect such upheaval?
I was visiting a country at war, so I was not surprised by the air raid. Unfortunately, attacks are commonplace in Kyiv and sirens are often sounded. I was born and have always lived in peace, like you, I have never been in a shelter. It was an unusual feeling to go down to a bunker.
Yet what does a shelter in the government quarter of a war-torn country look like?
We, heads of state and government, were escorted to a room underground, on level minus 3, with our colleagues. There were chairs, tables and water. The Counter-Terrorism Centre staff, who were in charge of our protection, monitored the air raid via an app.
How does time pass when presidents and prime ministers wait together? Do they talk politics even then?
After a while, we exhaust the topics we have planned and a more informal conversation develops, which is of course mainly political.
Who were you in the company of and what did you talk about?
With the Moldovan Prime Minister we talked about Moldova's accession to the EU. I told him about Hungary's experience, including the fact that the EU does not only ask the country to do its homework before accession, but also as a member.
IN ALL CASES, THE NEW MEMBERS HAVE TO BRING MORE TO THE TABLE THAN THE FOUNDING MEMBER STATES. EXPECT NOTHING ELSE!
The Finnish Prime Minister thanked Hungary for its support for their accession to NATO, and I assured him that I would also be pushing for a positive decision for Sweden as soon as possible.
You have not discouraged the Moldovan Prime Minister from joining the EU, have you?
I've tried not to discourage him, but I like straight talk. I pointed out to him that, while the EU candidate status of Moldova and Ukraine is important to us, it should not hold back the accession of the Western Balkan countries which have been waiting for a long time. Our priority is that Serbia and the Western Balkans should finally be able to belong to Europe in a legal sense as well.
What happened when you went up to level minus 2, to President Zelensky's underground office? You've met him before, haven't you?
Yes, but this was the first time I had a long, one-on-one meeting with him.
I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR AN OPPORTUNITY WHERE WE COULD ASSURE EACH OTHER WHILE LOOKING INTO EACH OTHER’S EYES THAT THERE IS A MUTUAL WILL TO COOPERATE.
President Zelensky said that as Transcarpathia is currently the safest region in Ukraine, he sees it as a long-term resource. He thanked Hungary for its assistance so far and the people of Transcarpathia for their brave stance. I stressed that it is in our mutual interest that the members of the 150,000-strong Hungarian minority living in Transcarpathia are able to fully exercise their minority rights. I did not hide the fact that we have come to a point when we need to make substantial progress in this respect.
The minority issue is a "hot potato" in Ukraine, and it is what practically led to the outbreak of the war. How did the President, who had previously dismissed the issue, react?
We have agreed to open a new chapter, to take substantive and concrete steps to further the interests of the Hungarian community in Transcarpathia. Now is not the time to mince words. The members of the Ukrainian minority living in Hungary enjoy very extensive rights, and that is as it should be.
The Ukrainian President said that what the members of the Ukrainian minority in Hungary receive, they are ready to give to the members of the Hungarian minority in Ukraine. This is not a bad starting point.
It is surprising how much Ukrainian politics has changed in recent weeks. Until now it has been keen to use the public sphere to put pressure on its allies, including Budapest. Has diplomatic excess and this kind of pressure been discussed?
In diplomacy, there are closed-door meetings and there are public events that take place in public. It is a good thing if the two differ in content. What you say in private or in a small group is not the same. In such cases, it is often a good thing to be frank. That's how I negotiate. It is unfortunate to confuse or conflate the two situations and put pressure on your negotiating partner through publicity. That is the ultima ratio.
My talks with the Ukrainian President were frank and open, and we talked openly about what we see as a problem.
Can you tell us what was said?
This is what I was referring to just now: there are sentences in a private meeting that are not intended for the public.
The Hungarian government is said to be urging peace and a ceasefire. For the Ukrainian government, as well as for many NATO countries, this position is rather a kind of betrayal, because Ukraine would lose territory. How did President Zelensky react when you spoke to him about peace?
I also told President Zelensky why peace is of the utmost importance to us Hungarians. Europe and Hungary are closer to the war than many people think. An escalation could happen at any moment. We, who were born in peace, cannot imagine what war is like! On the one hand, we think: it is merely the past, it cannot be the threat of the future, and on the other hand, most of us know weapons from the world of video games. Now the bloody reality has come knocking. Not only has this war devastated the lives of Ukrainians, but, as Pope Francis said, it has 'brought conflict into our homes'. In Transcarpathia, I met mothers grieving the loss of a child at the front and members of families torn apart. War is their reality. It is in the interest of the Hungarian people that our country should not be caught up in this relentless destruction. That is why we are strong advocates of peace.
But the Ukrainians' goal is to liberate completely the Russian-occupied territories, including Crimea. Kyiv says the fight must continue until every last square metre is reclaimed. The Ukrainian President may be less interested in the Hungarians' desire for peace.
The Ukrainian President represents Ukrainian interests, the Hungarian the Hungarian. And that is how it should be. We strongly condemn Russia's invasion. And I can understand someone who wants to defend his country at all costs.
THIS WAR HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A YEAR AND A HALF, AND I SEE NO MILITARY SOLUTION THAT WILL LEAD TO A LONG-TERM SUSTAINABLE PEACE. THAT IS WHY THE PARTIES MUST COME TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE! I HAVE EXPRESSED THIS STRONG OPINION TO THE PRESIDENT, BOTH PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY.
A "peace formula" has been launched at the initiative of President Zelensky, involving more than forty countries, including the EU, the USA, China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Australia, Türkiye, Japan and Qatar. As I consider it important for Hungary to be involved in any process that could bring us closer to peace, I indicated to the Ukrainian President our intention to join the negotiations, which he welcomed.
Your visit to Kyiv was also publicly appreciated by David Pressman. The US Ambassador to Budapest expressed hope that your example will be followed by the Hungarian government. Do you agree?
It is a good thing that everyone is beginning to hear that Hungary stands firmly for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine.
On Friday, your were in the Vatican for an audience with Pope Francis, the second time this year. What was the Catholic Pontiff most interested in?
The memory of Pope Francis' apostolic visit to Hungary has left a deep mark on us. It is an honour to have had the opportunity to meet again after a few months and to talk to each other in a meaningful way. The most important question now in the Vatican was how we can awaken the desire for peace in those who live far from this conflict. The Holy Father attaches great importance to the role of women, of women leaders. As he said:
WE WOMEN ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO SEEK CONFLICT RESOLUTION THAN MEN. THAT'S WHY HE COUNTS ON ME PERSONALLY TO PROMOTE PEACE.
The Holy Father is a man of peace, who sees Hungary as a place from which peace can come. This was confirmed by his visit to Hungary.
Is there a pre-agreed agenda for a papal audience?
As we are in contact with the Holy Father not only in person but also by letter, we are having a conversation that we have just had the opportunity to continue. Therefore, we did not need to agree on topics in advance, as we knew what we were going to talk about. In addition to the challenges of war, we also talked about the role of traditional family values. Pope Francis asked me to continue to stand up for traditional family values in every possible forum and with every means at my disposal. I should support young people to have the courage to say yes to starting a family, also when they want a career.
THE HOLY FATHER ALSO SPOKE ABOUT HIS OWN FAMILY, WHERE THERE ARE ALSO FEWER AND FEWER CHILDREN. FIRST THERE WERE SEVEN CHILDREN, IN THE NEXT GENERATION THERE WERE PERHAPS TWELVE, AND NOW THERE ARE ONLY TWO.
We talked about how to turn the desire for a family into a plan for those who only dream in general terms of having children one day.
By the way, how long does a papal audience last?
At the Holy Father's, a private audience is usually scheduled for 15 minutes. On my visit to the Vatican last year, they knocked after 15 minutes and then repeated every five minutes. This year, no one knocked, so the interview lasted 50 minutes.
Speaking of families! Viktor Orbán has said that the fertility rate in Hungary should be raised from 1.5 to 2.1. As a former Minister for Family Affairs, do you have any further ideas to encourage childbearing?
Since 2010, a family-friendly policy turn has been underway in Hungary. We are ahead of Europe, as the European Union is only now starting to focus on demography. There is not a single country in Europe today that is able to maintain its population on its own. This is frightening! Although we have made a lot of progress in this country, with a family-friendly tax system, bringing up children and having a job is easier to reconcile, and there is more freedom of choice than before, I feel that we have not yet exhausted all the available opportunities in Hungary, either.
I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING WHAT THE NEXT STEP WILL BE TO HELP FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN TO HOME OWNERSHIP.
In Western Europe and overseas, the Hungarian child protection law - or as it is known on the left, the homophobic law - has been met with strong disapproval. The government is preparing to tighten this law further. Do you not think that Hungary is going too far?
Protecting children is a shared responsibility. Let those who have children responsibly bring them up according to their own convictions. We cannot take this freedom away from parents. If any further legislative changes are made to strengthen this freedom, I will be a partner in it.
Relations between Hungary and the US are currently at a low point, with a serious break between the two countries' leaders. In September there will be the annual meeting of the UN, to which you will be invited. Will you meet President Biden?
If I go to the reception he's giving, I certainly will. World leaders are meeting in New York for the UN General Assembly. It's like a bustling anthill in the organisation's building. In addition to the official events, we also have the opportunity to meet in person. I will also have many bilateral meetings on the margins of the UN General Assembly.
After your visit to the Vatican, you met - unofficially - with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni in Rome.
We were both more eager for a long, informal, friendly chat than a formal meeting. It is also an opportunity for Hungary that Italy has a prime minister who sees us as a friend and ally. We agree on the essential issues: we consider illegal migration a source of danger and we stand up for traditional family values. We also know that without the protection of Christian culture, we have no long-term future. We also talked about access to EU funds. There is a palpable difference in the conditions that the EU sets for a founding EU country and a country that joined later. It is fascinating to see how the Italian Prime Minister navigates the maze of politics. Giorgia Meloni is looking for a solution that will give her the freedom to make decisions in the interests of the Italian people.
AFTER ALL, POLITICS AND DIPLOMACY ARE SHAPED BY PEOPLE, AND A LOT DEPENDS ON HUMAN RELATIONS. THAT'S WHY FRIENDS ARE IMPORTANT.
There will be two elections in Hungary next year: to the European Parliament and the local elections. Have you already formulated your expectations of political parties and politicians? Haven't you had enough of campaigns?
I expect a fair contest, and I also ask political parties to present what they have to offer voters so that they can make informed choices. In Hungary we are used to constant political communication, and
PERSONALLY, I WOULDN'T MIND A LITTLE MORE PEACE BETWEEN TWO ELECTIONS. EVERYONE IS HAPPY WHEN POLITICS INTRUDES LESS INTO THEIR HOMES.
It is also important to think about issues without the pressures of a campaign period that are crucial for our future: families, children's future or education.
Western Europe has seen the rise of green parties, which have put the protection of the environment on their banner. Sometimes they do surreal things, but they have a base. Which shade of green do you think would be the winning one in Hungary?
I like the shades of green that complement the red and white.